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6 Tips to Make or Break Your Copy – feat. Jacqueline Paumier

Does your copy reflect your work, your brand, and your voice? In today’s episode, Jacqueline Paumier of Self Writeous joins me to discuss the importance of copywriting across all platforms and six tips to make or break your copy!

The Branded by Bernel Podcast is brought to you by Bernel Westbrook, lead designer and founder of Branded by Bernel, a design studio dedicated to building strong brands and Showit websites for creative entrepreneurs.

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Jacqueline Paumier is a copywriter, brand whisperer, and doer of all things wordy. a self proclaimed Ad Brat, she’s been the copy voice behind brands like At&t, American Express, and Mini-Cooper. She’s the founder of Self Writeous, providing consulting and copy services for disruptive entrepreneurs ready to own their voice and their message.

The Impacts that Written Copy Has on Your Brand

As a web design business, we’ve come to realize the value of copywriting on a website. Every single piece of copy serves a purpose on your site. While some people classify specific copy as conversion copy, Jacqueline believes that all copy should be conversion copy. It serves the purpose of nurturing relationships with your potential clients and customers, establishing an easy way for them to buy from you.

The copy that represents your brand should reflect your brand’s voice—great copywriters know how to portray that in written words. Website copy is no longer just words describing what you’re selling, it involves storytelling, personality, and more!

Six Tips to Make or Break Your Copy

No matter the type of copy you’re writing, Jacqueline has six tips that will make or break your copy.

  1. Get into knowing your person. It’s important to know who you’re talking to, what they’re interested in, what motivates them, and so much more.
  2. Establish a voice bar for yourself. Know the who, where, WTF of the voice of your ideal person(s). This could be guided by an age, lifestyle, etc.
  3. Knowing the copy real estate. While you can absolutely work smarter, not harder. It’s important to know the real estate of your platform for your copy, so that you’re meeting the audience based on the platform.
  4. Photo copies. Using your copy in a way that paints your ideal customer where they are in their journey can help them see your value/point of view, without starting a shame cycle.
  5. What do you think/know is the problem versus what their problem actually is. Your customers may have a problem that they don’t know about—sometimes they don’t realize it until you’re already in your process.
  6. Go inside yourself—what have you been afraid to say? There are things we want to say that we’re holding back, often an interrupted thought. Say what you need to say rather than safeguarding your language and copy. (Tip: You can break the third wall in your copy to control the conversation).

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you join Jacqueline’s workshop happening in July!

Connect with Jacqueline

selfwriteous.com

instagram.com/selfwriteously

facebook.com/Self-Writeous-105567354710896

Connect with Bernel

brandedbybernel.com

instagram.com/brandedbybernel

Review the Transcript:

Bernel
Hey, hun. Welcome to the Branded by Bernel podcast. I’m your host Bernel. You may know me as the branding and web designer who obsesses over the details so you don’t have to. We all desire to be great at what we do. Although once we get there, no one seems to talk about the messy middle. This motivated me to set the table and invite industry peers over to share stories about living and working in the creative world. So grab the OJ and champagne, pull up a chair, join the creative community and be prepared to build a brand you fall in love with. This is the Branded by Bernel Podcast.

Bernel
Today on the podcast, I am super excited to be joined by Jacqueline Paumier. She is a copywriter brand whisperer and doer of all things wordy, a self proclaimed ad brat she’s been the copy voice behind big brands like at&t, American Express and Mini Cooper. She’s the founder of self righteous providing consulting and copy services for disruptive entrepreneurs ready to own their voice and their messaging. I am so excited to welcome you on the show.

Jacqueline Paumier
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Bernel
Yes, for everybody listening at home. I am super excited for today’s episode, not just because Jacqueline is an amazing writer, but also because I’ve been able to work with her recently. And just She’s done an amazing job. So I really wanted you guys to meet the voice behind some of the brands about real voice.

Jacqueline Paumier
Thank you. Yeah, it’s a blast working with brands like yours and actually getting to put the words behind the identity. And then you have the whole visual and beautiful side going on. I just think it’s been an awesome, awesome partnership.

Bernel
Yes, indeed. So something I talk about a lot as a web designer, people are probably tired of hearing it. But I’m gonna say it again, you need a copywriter. When you decide that you want a new website like this is not a negotiable factor. I tell people all the time, if you want to have the best possible website you can have you need the whole team. So for those who are not familiar with a copywriter, or even copywriting services, what does that look like?

Jacqueline Paumier
Well, I love what you said about the the to really do matter. I like to think it’s almost like going on a date with somebody and they can just be gorgeous and attractive and you sit down and nothing’s coming out of their mouth. The conversation is flowing. Like that’s probably the last date. You’ll go on with them hopefully. But in terms of copy, which will be more intelligent with the word copy means it’s basically the voice of your brand. It’s what you want to say. Some people like to call it conversion copy, I think all copy should be conversion copy. So I don’t necessarily label it that way. But it’s nurturing that relationship with your potential clients and customers and establishing an easy way for them to go and buy from you.

Bernel
Yes. Oh my goodness, that is awesome. So now you guys know what copy is. It’s funny because when I first looked for a copywriter, I was Googling like our i g h t. Finding all of this like legal information. We’re talking about just to clarify, a copy writer, like somebody who writes for you WRI t er, um, I know maybe maybe everybody else knew that. But I know when I was first starting my business, I was like, okay, so somebody said, I mean, a copywriter, like what exactly is

Jacqueline Paumier
easy mistake, easy mistake, you probably need both in your business.

Bernel
Honestly, both is probably important. Um, but that’s a different podcast. Um, so the legal setup of your business. All right, so Exactly. Tell me how long have you been in business? Oh, well,

Jacqueline Paumier
self righteous is still in its infancy. It’s still a toddler. But I’ve been working as a copywriter, between agencies and for different clients for over a decade.

Bernel
Wow, that is incredible. So I’m sure by doing a job over a decade, you have seen the industry change and shift a little bit in good ways

Jacqueline Paumier
and in bad ways, right? We’re seeing people step out of the norms or the traditions of it. In the very beginning, we thought that coffee just meant telling people what the problem was the solution and here’s why I’m the right person for the job. We’ve finally hit a point where I think most business owners understand now that there needs to be personality involved and character involved. But there’s a lot of ugly stuff that comes with it as well. Right? So you have people that are using really gross sales tactics that are creating things like false urgency or really trying to make people feel so inclined. Draw that they just rush and by. So there’s a non ethical side as well, that shows up depending on who you’re working with. So yeah, you see the developments in the changes. For the most part, I think I like the direction we’re going in.

Bernel
Yes, I love that, I think that the same thing could be said of the design industry, you know, it went from tell people exactly what you have, tell them, they absolutely have to buy it. Oh, man, that’s what you would just plaster on every page of your website, and all of these pop ups and ads and all this stuff. And I feel like things are moving to more of a organic, authentic space, where it’s like, people want to know your legit person, before they spend money with your company. And so I think it speaks to that fact, they want to see that personality, they want to hear your voice, they want to see what you’re like, which once again, is why copy has to be like, strong, foundational piece in your marketing.

Jacqueline Paumier
It’s huge, especially when you’re thinking in industries where maybe your client needs to be vulnerable. You know, I have a lot of clients that do coaching and traumatic areas, or they need to be really trusted with their body. I mean, really anything that we’re separating our hard earned cash from, from ourselves to go and invest in something that that’s going to require trust and trust requires a solid relationship. So the more we feel like we’re speaking to an actual human being, and someone that cares about our results, and what’s going to happen to us at the end of the day, the more comfortable we feel

Bernel
on investing. Yes, 100%. I agree 100%. So before we dive into really the meat of our episode today, because just as a recap, if you’re listening at home, this episode is really going to provide you with six tips to make or break your copy. But before we dive into that, I love to hear the entrepreneurial story. So how did you end up in this industry?

Jacqueline Paumier
I ended up here the long way. And I think that’s because just a rebel by nature. I don’t know if you’ve experienced this, or you have something that comes to you very naturally, very organically. And everybody says, You’re you’re going to do this, this is great. You should go and do this. And there’s something in you that goes, no, that’s too easy. I’m gonna go try something way over here that has nothing to do with this. So for me that something was cooking. So I actually packed up, I moved to France, I studied cooking for a couple years, I started working. Yeah. And then I realized I like I like weekends. And I like night and I like being able to see my family, but still love the food world. So I went from there and do writing about food instead. And then from writing about food into just writing and then that writing moved into agency work. And it just kind of snowballed from there. Yeah.

Bernel
Oh, my goodness, that is such a cool story. And definitely something we may have to chat about after this episode. Because I have always admired people who just go after their passion and physically moved to do it. Because a lot of times I feel like as entrepreneurs, we can create a passion and do it in our basement or, you know, in our spare bedroom. But when people like pack up their labs and move somewhere for their passion. I’m totally impressed.

Jacqueline Paumier
I mean, now at least I know at the end of the day, I can throw really damn good dinner party. So it worked out, right.

Bernel
Yeah, I guess you definitely picked up that skill. So that is awesome. So for those of you listening at home, I just always like to point out different things that I just feel like are very common in a lot of entrepreneurs, journeys and things that people just don’t talk about a lot. And that is pivoting. Just because you start in one thing just because you toss all of your effort and potentially money and time into something. It doesn’t mean you have to stay in that industry if that’s not specifically what your calling is. And I do think there is something to the fact that the career that you’re supposed to have fun to you. And I know that sounds super cliche and super crazy, but just like you just said you went from physically cooking something to helping other people learn how to do it by writing about it. And writing was probably always a skill you were good at.

Jacqueline Paumier
Always it was it was a thing that really came naturally to me. I realize a lot of that had to do was just you know they say they say that the most common career for writers when they stopped being writers, a psychologist because I’ve always been really interested in how people tick, why they do the things they do. And you start to look at different characters and notice all different things. I think that’s what helps me be a better voice impersonator for my clients. It’s just really getting into those granular details and understanding their people. So from the very beginning, it was just always easy to slip into different voices. And you know what, there was some school assignments or website assignments, it really didn’t matter.

Bernel
Yes, oh my goodness, I love that term voice impersonator. Because I do think that there’s a fear as a business owner, when you hire out when you are asking somebody to mimic my voice in the best way possible to showcase who I am. But I also like to compel people to spend money with me. I think that’s such a scary thing of can you actually sound like me. And so I think that that’s a skill of a very good copywriter.

Jacqueline Paumier
It’s it’s a little nuances, right? And that sometimes it’s things that we don’t even realize we do. Or say I have two little ones. And it’s funny when you watch them, do an impersonation of me or their dad, and they pick up all the little characters and you’re like, I don’t do that. I was like, well, actually, you do you do, say you do have a little saying that you have or maybe you picked it up from here. And when you start to pull in those little touches, that’s what makes it feel like you I just take that and put it in with the strategy and the sales technique. And that’s, that’s the process.

Bernel
Yep. Excellent. I love it. I love it. All right. So let’s dive into these six tips. Because I’m excited. And I have my notebook. And I’m ready to learn about them. The six tips to make or break your copy, like what would you say the first one is?

Jacqueline Paumier
Absolutely. So these are tips, I think, work across the board, whether we’re talking about website, copy, email, copy blogs that you’re sending out, the first one. And that’s always where I start with my audiences is really getting into your person, right? So you and I had a one hour conversation about who you love, and why you love them and why you want to serve and why they’re so important to you, and really getting to know them on a psychological level, because there’s so much more that goes into that decision making process. Beyond, hey, I want to make this website or hey, I want to buy this thing, or there’s just years of experiences expectation. And so really getting into understanding what that looks like for them, what’s motivating the choices that they’re making, what their fears might be, and isolating, I like to isolate at least five mental blocks that are getting in the way. So I think I would say that first step is just sitting down, knowing exactly what point of the journey your personas, right, because we can say I want six figure entrepreneurs, right? Well, at what stage of their business? Do they have a team? are they managing it by themselves? Are they ready to move into seven? Did they just start making six figures? Really pinpointing it? And then getting into the thought process from there before even looking at any other copy?

Bernel
Yes. Oh, my goodness, yes. So often, I see that everybody puts their ideal client is a six figure entrepreneur. And I’m like, Look, there’s a big range of six figure entrepreneurs, there are people who just hit six figures, but that’s not in profit. That’s just in sales. And they probably couldn’t duplicate it again next year, if they wanted to. There are people who are, as you said, moving from six to seven, they have a whole system and process, they have a whole team. So definitely knowing who that ideal client is. i That’s definitely a starting point. Absolutely. And

Jacqueline Paumier
just asking yourself questions behind, you know, and we get to go deep with each other, which makes it fun, but feel free to really try again, their background after story around them. What did they grow up seeing? Were they in a home of feast and famine? Were they just living kind of comfortably at their levels of guilt that they’re going through for their level of success? So you know, the more that we can get into those details, the more you have a clear picture of who you’re talking to?

Bernel
Yes, for sure. For sure. So that’s an excellent first tip. All right, what’s number two?

Jacqueline Paumier
Number two is establish a voice bar for yourself. So copy is very easily influenced, right? And we all do it. So for example, if you just got off the phone with a colleague that does graphic design, and they’ve been doing it forever, and you’re really deep into conversation, you’re able to use all the nuances and terminology because you both have been in the industry for a while. And then you go to sit down to write something to your audience. It might feel more advanced than where they are because you’re just being influenced by the conversation. Or we see people using certain copy trends or buzzwords or things that are coming into play. So what I like to do is I don’t know if I’m allowed to, I say WTF so I hope I’m allowed to say that I call it who were WTF I usually use the full word of that I won’t for the sake of this podcast. But the thought process for this bar is choosing to people, a lot of times you’ll have someone says, Oh, who’s the voice spokesperson for your copy. But I usually see this to people imagining two parts, or two known icons that represent your brand. And I’ll give a example of what this looks like in a minute, where they are and what they’re doing. So for example, I did copy for a brand that was selling health bars and sports cars, and they had a really specific person who they had in mind. And they said, who they have in mind is Zac Efron with the most interesting man in the world from the DOS AQIS beer commercials, had one too many drinks and decided to go on a hike, that they’re who they’re aware, and they’re WTF what’s happening. And so to unpack that for you, right, so we’ve received Zac Efron, we have the young guy who’s the everyman, he can dress up and hit the town, you can see him mountain biking out on the road, we have the most interesting man in the world, which says adventure. But we’re also saying there’s not an age cap. On this, it’s more of a lifestyle that we’re looking at. The one too many drinks tells me the conversation is exciting, but it’s also maybe there’s some inappropriate language thrown in. It’s a little cheeky. And then of course, we had the athleticism of they’re out on a height, they’re out in nature, it’s not setting up in the park. So that helps me because when I sit down to write, if it sounds more like Zach Galifianakis than Zac Efron, then I can say, Okay, I’m going too far in the humor side, or I need to amp up this one part. So if you just have one, bar one measure that you can say, my voice, my brand sounds like this, then before you hit publish, or post or anything like that, run it by, and you’ll know exactly which elements of your copy to tune up. And

Bernel
yes, I love that you use it as a measuring stick. Exactly. That is awesome. Okay, I hope you guys are right in this damn. All right, what is number three?

Jacqueline Paumier
Number three is knowing your copy real estate, right? So a lot of times, we’ll find people that, you know, maybe you’ve seen this in branch and brand. If the same piece of copy slightly tweaked and reused in different spots, here’s a big blog post, I’m gonna minimize it and make it a newsletter, then I’m gonna take a few clips of it and use it for social and I completely get energy work smart, not hard. That makes complete sense. The problem is, we have different amounts of usable real estate depending on where our coffee is, right. So you know, if your your coffee on your website that can only go on for butts along even the longest sales pages after a while. That’s it, there’s no limit. And done. But I have areas like blogs that are going out, I can write blogs forever. If I have emails that are going out, it’s the same thing. Social media, it’s the same thing. So this tip actually kind of links back to that first tip that we’re talking about in terms of isolating those mental blocks, right, knowing what’s getting in their way. If you’re thinking about what your ideal client is struggling with, some of those struggles are lightweight, like you and I could sit over coffee. And at the end of the day, you’re like, you know what, Jack, you’re right, that doesn’t, I can let go of that I’m good. Some of them are like, this is a part of my identity. And it’s going to take time for me to let this go. Assigning the areas of your message, depending on how much real estate you have is really smart way to do this. Because it was really heavy subjects, it’s going to take more time to get through, we’re not gonna get through them on the homepage of your website, right? You might not even get through all of them on your sales page. But when we’re thinking emails and social and areas where you have more space, you can keep talking about those harder conversations that need a little bit more repetition and save the lighter stuff for the areas that have less space.

Bernel
Yes, oh my goodness, yes. I’ve never really looked at it from that perspective of how each marketing area in our business has real estate. I always look at your homepage and I’m like, okay, prime real estate. That’s what they see at the top. That’s before they scroll down. But we really have prime real estate and a lot of places it sounds like Absolutely. That is that’s awesome. That was a good one. Okay.

Jacqueline Paumier
So number four is what I like to call photocopies. So I’ll give a story of an example here. I you there was a children’s movie that came out once and I loved it and I’m on Facebook and my kids watching and we posted and we’re like oh this is a Great movie, I won’t say which movie it is. And a friend of mine responded back and she said, that movie is really problematic. I’m like, No, it’s not problematic. And so we’re in the DMS, we’re talking. And she goes, yeah, and she named all these reasons. I’m like, You’re being sensitive. It’s not problematic. But okay, agree to disagree, fine. Fast forward a couple months later, I’m rewatching, the movie. And lo and behold, I’m realizing how problematic it is right? And I’m like, Oh, my gosh, you’re right. My point here is that we, as human beings are just naturally defensive people, even when we want something. When something is mirrored directly to us, we kind of shut down. So even if I haven’t slept in two weeks, if you looked at me and said, Jack, you’re an insomniac. And you’d never get enough sleep. Although that’s not true. I slept once I’m fine. Right? I have a rebuttal. So the way around this, instead of putting out generalizations that might be felt as a judgment to your audience, or might kind of trigger that pushback in your copy, like to do photocopy. So again, there’s a difference between using to me, Jack, you, you’re not sleeping, you’re never getting enough sleep. And you’re saying, This is the fifth night in a row, that the Netflix are you still watching sign popped up at 3am? And you had to say yes, and keep going, right? can’t really argue that if I’m like, I remember watching Stranger Things. Right? I can’t sleep. So painting it out for them an actual situation that they can see themselves in, this does go a little bit against the school of thought of pain points, or twisting the knife copy of really make them feel you’re depressed, you’re struggling, you’re this witch. Personally, I think it’s just irresponsible and unethical anyway, I’m not inviting you to my website to make it worse than when you got here. So this is my healthy swap for that, I guess it’s a way of saying, have put them in the situation. Yes, we’re acknowledging the elephant in the room. But we’re not starting some kind of shame cycle, that’s going to mean, either they don’t buy or they buy with so much urgency that now you have a pain client that is going to be on you rushing for that transformation.

Bernel
Yes. And it probably took until about year five in my business to realize that I need to know their pain points as a business owner, but I don’t necessarily need to scream them at them. And that does go against that marketing strategy of finding their pain points, tell them their pain points, tell them your business is failing because you don’t do X, Y and Z. Nobody likes to be bullied into buying something from you, you know what I mean? Like nobody likes that. And I think it took a while to realize it’s important as a business owner, service provider, product creator, whatever you do, whatever industry you’re in, it’s important for you to know your clients pain points. But it’s also important for you to be able to articulate, you know, the situations that they’re going through, instead of saying you are failing at x y&z So that’s a good one.

Jacqueline Paumier
And you actually let us perfectly into the next point, which is asking yourself, I’ve asked you this, you know, before in the past, it’s been one of my favorite questions to ask my clients is, what do they think the problem is? And what do you think the problem is? And on the flip side, what do they think they need? And what do you know, from your experience that they need? A lot of times worse, and it’s and again, this is a lot of reasons why sometimes it is easier to go with a copywriter is because we’re so close to what we do that we’re speaking from that point of view. But if we’re sitting there and we’re going, Okay, I know this because I’ve been doing this for this long. I know this because I’ve seen it show up with every kind of client that’s crossed my path. They come in thinking it’s this and it turns out, it’s you know, it’s not a it’s actually B. Yeah, I’m not going to believe you that it’s B while they still think it’s a right. So understanding that we’re speaking to first the problem that they have in their minds. And sometimes there are some things that don’t need to be on that side of your copy because they’re things that they won’t discover until they’re working with you. Right. So looking at your message and going okay, at what point do they really start grasping it? Is it before they’re working with me? Or is it after? Well, if it’s after then we just need to speak up to the part where they enter the door because the rest of that they’re gonna get when they’re hand in hand with you.

Bernel
Oh, my goodness. Yes. I think that makes so much sense. And you helped me realize that in our one on one call when we were working, I believed the pain point of my clientele was that like, they you know the price point don’t have websites, or they didn’t know, if they needed a website. Well, that’s not really true. And that’s not something they were telling me was their problem. Um, because I do work with more established businesses. So they are aware they need a website, like, I’m sitting here, like, let’s write paragraphs about why they need it. And you were able to help me realize that like, no, that’s not necessarily is that the pain point they’re telling you and know, my ideal clients pain point is usually they’re ready to, like, elevate the website, they already had, like, they know they have a website, they know they need one, I don’t need to tell them they need one. I need to show them how to, you know, celebrate this new phase of life that they’re in or new phase of business that they’re in. And just even my messaging in client calls has shifted since our conversation, and I feel like that’s resonating with people that like, yes, yes, I need a website, like, now let’s get it from point A to point B. But I see how like, working with somebody who is a word specialist, as I like to call you, or somebody who really understands the psychology behind what words mean to people, you’re able to point out to us as business owners that like just because you call the pain point, this doesn’t mean your client calls it that

Jacqueline Paumier
absolutely, or something that, you know, no hard part with that is a lot of times we like to do client surveys or client research. But we’re interviewing the client after they’ve worked with us after someone were saying, so what was the problem? What was the thing? They’re seeing it from the perspective of everything they’ve learned through the process with you? So the perspective of someone that’s gone through, it can be completely different than someone that’s just entering your door for the first time?

Bernel
Yes, yes, indeed, this genius. That’s all I can say. Philosophy is genius. Um, and I feel like copy for so many people is a time consuming thing. Because it is hard to write about yourself. It is hard to write about things that you’re an expert on, but be able to explain it to people in a way that doesn’t like that they can understand it. Like that’s just a very difficult task. copywriters are so important. All right, that brings us to our last tip, what is our last tip?

Jacqueline Paumier
Our last one is more of going inside yourself personally. Of course, you know, save, save the hardest bit last and really asking yourself, what have I been afraid to say? And exactly to your point, Brunel, sometimes it’s afraid to say, I am the best, you’re gonna find that doing this thing, sometimes that’s a scary thing. Sometimes we’re scared to use a certain terminology, sometimes we’re scared to say that we’re really only here for a certain audience of person. And we don’t want to work with someone that’s, you know, in a different stage of business or going through a different, you know, life path. There’s usually something that we’re holding back saying when we’re struggling with our coffee. And it’s almost like an interrupted flow of thought, or if you you know, if you are, if anyone’s listening has ever tried to study another language. I myself personally, so I live in Mexico, my husband’s Cuban, I have just enough Spanish to get me by. But get me in a moment where I’m really mad or upset, and I am slowly it is flying. It’s that the language is going through? Well, why is it that when I’m emotional, and I’m spending less energy thinking about how to say it in the right way, that it’s easier for me to say, because I’m not spending? So much of that time they update, see this right? Was this the right grammatical usage that I and it flows, I’ll make way more mistakes, when I’m trying to pay attention to every little thing. And the same thing happens with our copy, how’s it going to feel conversational? If we’re trying to filter out and safeguard? Obviously, I’m not saying go all out and be offensive, like, please don’t do that. But usually, when you stop and you said, Okay, where am I been holding back? What’s the part of my message that I’ve been wanting to say, but whether it’s doubts about myself and my client, audiences, I haven’t put it out there. And actually, you will be surprised to find that there are usually people that are kind of lingering, waiting to hear that part of your message with every client I’ve ever had that was holding back on that one thing they wanted to say. As soon as they said it, they had sales rolling in, because there are people who just it’s like, I feel like you have something to say to me. You haven’t said it yet, but I feel like you’re trying to tell me something. And when you finally say they’re like, yes, okay, let’s get to work.

Bernel
Yes, that is so so true. Fear, I’m telling you fear is just it’s a crippling thing, or it can be and we don’t have to let it be. But it can be such a crippling thing in your business because I think there is this and I think social media did it or made it worse but there Is this fear of saying or coming off the wrong way or coming across the wrong way, or people may perceive me as this. And so we almost like curate our words, instead of just authentically speaking from the heart.

Jacqueline Paumier
And I’ll give you a facile tip on that one. I love what do they call, I think they call it breaking the third wall, you know, when you’re watching a movie or a show, they stop and they look at the camera, and then they go back to the conversation. You can do that, right? So if you’re really afraid that you’re going to come off as arrogant, right? If I’m going to toot my own horn, and I’m afraid I’m going to come off as arrogant for saying that I’m the best at this. I’ll say You know what, I am the best when it comes to this industry. And then really quick in parentheses. And before you write this off as being arrogant, hold tight. I’m about to get into light and say this so confidently, and then move on. It’s like having those bumpers and a bowling alley, right? You’re, you get to control that conversation. If you’re concerned that someone’s gonna think something or feel a certain way about what you’re saying, just kind of bake it in a little way. Just keep navigating it so it doesn’t have to get sidetracked.

Bernel
Yes. Oh, my goodness. I love it. I love it. I love it. And your website does that. I literally felt like I was having a conversation. So I found you total transparency moment, I found you because the aesthetic of your website brought me which says a lot you guys because I’m a web designer. And I don’t feel that way about a lot of people’s websites, oops for saying that. A lot of people’s websites are not impressive to me your website I saw I don’t remember where I saw it. But it was on social media. And I was like, well, this website is beautiful. And I remember initially thinking she might like secretly be a designer, like we might need to like collaborate from a design standpoint. But then I began to read. And you guys when I began to read her was I had never read anything like it. And a few of my friends will tell you like I sent it to them. Like I was like, Have you ever seen a copywriter? Like, you were speaking so specifically to me, I felt like I was just like, wow, like, okay, and so from that I realized I was like, okay, my website does not do that. I was like, All right, like my website is also very pretty. But it does not do that. And don’t get me wrong. People booked me from my website. But I often feel like we’re still filtering people in client calls and consultations. And I was like, the way that Jack wrote her copy, like, you know what it is like, you know exactly what it is before you get on the phone with her. So I was like, Yeah, I definitely need this service. And so I just think it’s, it speaks to how your copy was written the fact that I didn’t come to you looking for a copywriter, I came you thinking, wow, this is aesthetically pleasing. Oh, her messages, her messages now captured my attention.

Jacqueline Paumier
They go hand in hand, right. It’s amazing how the two can grab each other and how will they work. But I do always say copywriting I think it makes me a little borderline schizophrenic, because you’re having full conversations with yourself in your head. So it’s not, you know, never writing from like a TED talk, I’m standing on stage talking. You it’s like I have my imaginary Bernel in my head, and I’m gonna say, Okay, I’m gonna say this. And then she’s going to think this. And now the next thing I’m writing is in response to that thought, it’s not to follow what I said last. And so that’s why when you’re reading, you kind of have like a little bit of a ping pong experience of hearing both sides of the conversation.

Bernel
Therefore, it was a ping pong experience. And I had just never seen it work because I was like, okay, you know, she’s telling me what she does, but it’s literally this back and forth. And then my next thought is like, I don’t know. And I’m not gonna belabor this fact, guys, because I know that you guys came here to learn and to listen about how to write your copy for your website. But on her website, on the done for you page, there was a section where she’s like, Who’s scared of playing with the big boys. And I literally in my head was thinking, not me. And the next line says, Not I said, Oh, this woman gets me ahead. And so it’s things like that. Just it’s conversational, because you could have said, I have worked with big brands. And that would have, I mean, honestly captured the essence of what you were talking about, but it didn’t capture the personality. So anyway, that’s a little sidebar rant for today. Yes, yes. All right. Well, people probably are thinking where can I work with you? So tell us how to work with you what’s next? Where can they find you?

Jacqueline Paumier
Yeah, no problem. So as Bernel said, you can find me on self righteous.com So for H’s little cheeky wording there s e l f WRITOU s.com. I do done for Are you copy where you’re just handing it over to me, I also do that with you, I’m actually helping you do it. And then on July 15, coming up, I’m doing a finding your cohesive voice workshop, which is very much about not just having great copy in one area of your brand and the rest that’s falling flat. But how do you carry that message to every piece that you do when you’re showing up to do that next photo shoot, when you’re working with a fantastic web designer like Brunel? How are you making sure that this is showing up no matter what you have going on? So I’m pretty excited about that?

Bernel
Yes, well, that is super exciting. Okay, finding your cohesive voice workshop. That sounds great. We’ve talked about cohesive branding on the show guys, so cohesive voice just as important, if not more important, so make sure you check that out. I will have that linked in the show notes as well. And I am so excited that you were able to join me today. This has been such an informative conversation.

Jacqueline Paumier
This was I can geek out on copy, whatever. So I’m happy. Happy to be here. Thanks for inviting

Bernel
Wow, that went by really fast. As always, thank you so much for showing up in my little corner of the internet. I would love to hear your thoughts on the show. So please, please subscribe, leave a review and share what you learned with friends. Some of the best things in life are freebies. So don’t forget to head over to Brandon by brunel.com to check out our free branding goodies. This show notes and more educational resources

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